Senja Barthel is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Mathematics at VU Amsterdam. She was born in Berlin, Germany, and she studied Mathematics and Physics at the Technical University of Berlin, as well as Music Pedagogics at the University of the Arts in Berlin. In 2015, Senja obtained her PhD in Mathematics from Imperial College London, and throughout her scientific studies and PhD, she maintained a parallel career in music. Following her doctoral studies, Senja worked as a postdoctoral researcher in a computational chemistry lab at EPFL from 2016 to 2019. In 2019, she joined our department.
Thank you for taking the time to meet with me, Senja!
Thank you for interviewing me!
Your academic journey is quite unique, blending music, physics, mathematics, and applications to chemistry. You pursued parallel careers in mathematics and music before focusing entirely on academia. Can you tell me more about this path? How did it begin, and have you put your music career on hold, or do you still find time for it?
I have always been interested in a diverse range of things but always knew that I liked analytic thinking, as well as geometry-flavored problems. This is why choosing mathematics was the obvious choice! But I was also quite curious to understand natural phenomena. I have been lucky to be able to combine these interests throughout my academic career. Music happened mainly in parallel. In my experience, doing mathematics and performing music are very different. I played the recorder quite seriously as a teenager and I knew I would miss it when I decided to study at the technical university. I auditioned at the University of the Arts, mainly to have no regrets, but when I got accepted there was no way I would not start! Studying mathematics, physics, and music in parallel was a challenge but a very nice mix. I naturally went on to teach music and perform in concerts after graduation. But moving for my academic career eventually put music on hold and I have not had the time and opportunity for reviving it since moving to Amsterdam. Perhaps in the future again.
I do hope you'll find the time and opportunity to revive your music again in the near future! Another unique aspect of your CV is the inclusion of your unsuccessful grant applications. What motivated you to include these? To me, it seems to say: “Even with successes, I face challenges too. My journey has had both ups and downs, and I’m comfortable sharing both, even in my CV.” It strikes me as an honest way to reflect the reality that, even with success, obstacles and “failures” are part of the process. What are your thoughts about this?
Well, the choice of what I put into my CV obviously depends on the audience. If I apply for funding for example, I will highlight the most relevant experiences, the successful grants, and fancy stuff. To some degree we are required to build a brand of ourselves. But I believe that there is a danger of harming authenticity, and of contributing to unnecessary unhealthy competition and pressure. This is why I sent you a version of my CV that mainly presents the work I have spent time and effort on. And that includes writing project proposals that were rejected. I wish to not see these as failures but simply as a part of doing the job, and I think that it is helpful to take this perspective more often.
I agree with you and I am grateful that you shared this version of your CV with me! My dad always says that “failure” is not a negative word, because failing means that you tried. It’s a perspective I’ve had to be reminded of many times, and while I don’t typically include setbacks in my CV, I do like to discuss them, especially with my students. How do you see the role of setbacks in shaping the conversations you have with colleagues or students?
I think that sharing in general is important for learning from one another, gaining perspective, and providing mutual support. I like to be aware of the setting we operate in and I am lucky that my current committee assignment to the management team gives me an opportunity for insight and reflection, and I hope to make a positive contribution as academic integrity counselor. At least I quite enjoy the role.
This is beautiful! Senja, in your office you have colored pencils, colored yarn, and playdough. What is the role of these items in your creative process, and how do they contribute to your mathematical intuitions?
All my perhaps seemingly unrelated research interests have something in common: Shape stuff! Building an extended version of spatial intuition, including in spaces other than R3, gives me the feeling of a deeper understanding of the world. It’s like an extension of my senses. For me, that’s the fun part of pure math research. For the natural world around us, finding shape-property relationships is my way of making sense of things. Of course I start from what I am used to most, which is R3. And there you get yarn and playdough to quickly double check or communicate what’s in your head. Topology isn’t called rubber geometry for no reason! The coloured pencils are just a necessity for arguments that include diagrams of knots, braids, and spatial graphs, which are my favorites. Also, using colors makes my notebook look nicer!
“An extension of my senses”... I love this! Now, as I did with İlke Çanakçı, I want to ask you the following question: You moved to The Netherlands in 2019 and shortly after, you found yourself in lockdown. What was it like for you to start your new job this way?
Moving always takes some time for me, not only getting to know a place, but also to feel a sense of belonging. Of course the lockdown made this much more difficult and elongated the transition time. It took a while for me to realize its impact; at the beginning I was relieved that some classes got canceled, and it made it easier for my private life, which of course was not yet centered in the Netherlands. But soon enough there was a longer period of being alone in a city I kind of lived in for some time already but still hadn’t arrived at. I am glad this is all in the past now and I have properly settled in. Workwise, the transition from mainly research to more teaching and admin is difficult enough by itself. Having to implement different corona adaptations for different programs, which for me were new anyways, plus the resulting extra work, that was overwhelming at times. Reaching a good balance between teaching and research took me quite some time.
Indeed, the transition from mainly research to more teaching and admin is difficult enough by itself. I can only imagine the extra challenges you’ve faced due to the lockdown. And how was it to return to normal life afterwards?
Surely I was relieved when things got back to normal. Meeting with PhD students is much better in real life than online! And I remember how the first time I visited a bar with live music again, I realized how much I had missed things like that.
I remember that too! Besides mathematics and music, what makes you happy?
Mostly spending time with the people that are important in my life. In my free time I like doing arts and crafts projects and trying different sports—I just started aerials and artistic swimming which seem to be good fun. I figured that knotting myself into fabric in the air and developing underwater spatial awareness while moving to music might be good fits for me. I also find being in nature energizing, even more so if there is some water around. Luckily Amsterdam has its canals, so I got a kayak for the city, and it is great that it is not far to the dunes and the sea side where I can lekker uitwaaien.
Mooi! Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and thoughtful insights!