What strikes you about the national debate around immigration and integration?
"The current discussion has become bogged down in questions, such as “how much immigration is too much versus how much is okay?” But in the meantime, the entire integration piece is stuck. Take, for example, Pieter Omtzigt's target: he wants to allow a maximum of 50,000 immigrants annually. And what about the people who are already here? How do we ensure that residents without a migration background live comfortably with them in reality? The political parties have no answer. The politicians who shout the loudest that integration has failed come up with the fewest proposals to improve it."
How do we live together in ethnically and culturally diverse neighbourhoods and cities?
"Anti-migration parties such as Leefbaar Rotterdam, Forum for Democracy and the PVV have maintained for years that the multi-cultural society has failed. But interestingly enough, you see that even their own supporters often contradict this in practice. We asked voters from anti-immigration parties whether their contact with neighbours with a migration background is positive, and the vast majority said yes. So there are mixed feelings here. For example, they think the Dutch-Moroccan butcher is a nice man, but they vote for an anti-immigration party. So in practice what the parties that represent them advocate for does not happen: their voters do not reject the multi-cultural society; they participate in it. That’s why you don’t see a constant battle in those neighbourhoods. And at the same time, inter-ethnic contact does not make prejudices disappear, as many left-wing parties say. There are many paradoxes in reality that political parties do not admit."
Are there ethnically diverse neighbourhoods with less social cohesion?
"In our research, we saw this most strongly in the high-rise social housing in Vienna. In these housing blocks with a high proportion of immigrants, relatively many socio-economically weaker residents without a migration background regarded diversity as a threat. You also see such blocks in Amsterdam Noord, for example: they’re very anonymous, which makes living together more difficult. People no longer meet each other, they don’t know their neighbours or the people in the elevator, or the young people hanging around in the corridor. That’s when an “us versus them” attitude can arise, in which conflicts can explode. So whether things work well in a neighbourhood also has to do with the architecture. But overall, the majority of Amsterdammers and Rotterdammers without a migration background are positive about diversity in the city. The people of Rotterdam are slightly more negative, despite having more contact with people with a migration background."
What’s needed in a successful multi-cultural society?
"We saw the most inter-ethnic friendships in neighbourhoods where it’s easy to meet each other. There are diverse schools, children all go to the same football club in the community, people meet each other at work, or can easily go for coffee together. We saw this especially in low-rise neighbourhoods with many residents who don’t have a college or university degree. And there’s a paradox there too: people without a degree were relatively more negative about diversity than highly educated people, but they had more inter-ethnic friendships. What’s key is that there are sufficient opportunities in a neighbourhood to connect with each other."